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Syden
(@syden)
Active Member

Hi all,

Below is an excerpt from the Help Files.

"In a society devoted to respecting ones place within its hierarchy, those known as the Undone are the scourge of the Republic. The lowest of the low, they are reviled by foreigners and citizens alike. Their past is lost, a mystery to themselves and others the reasons for the hatred long since forgotten. As the original inhabitants of the Old City and The Steps, the Undone were forced out of the city by the conquering army of Tulcas. Many fled to the hills, and the surrounding marsh lands living in secrecy, hoping one day to retake their city.
Eventually as the Steps became more and more crowded the Undone began to slowly filter back into the city. They can be found among the beggars and thieves of the city, and in more numbers among the impoverished district. The narrow streets and general lawlessness of the Steps make a great refugee for the Undone, keeping them safe from the Soldiers of Ereal, and their activities out of reach of the Constables. As a result the Steps has become home to the largest population of non-vagrant Undone in the entire Republic. While scattered across the entire Steps, the largest band seems to be concentrated around the mysterious Dream Ruins.

Though they look much as other Iridinians, they can often be identified by their deep blue to purple-hued eyes. Many Undone spend their lives wandering the Republic, selling ill-gotten wares from their wagons, moving from town to town to escape persecution and the wrath of the victims of their scams and crimes. Others, whose eye coloration have faded over generations of intermarrying, live anonymously among the Iridinians."

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Is it still valid? Did the lore change over the years?

Up until 2 weeks ago, this is what I followed.

Quote
Topic starter Posted : 06/20/2022 8:22 PM
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RandomOne
(@randomone)
Trusted Member

I think its still valid, but it also does not exactly mean everyone in the game will have the exact same reaction or feeling towards it. 

While it says they are looked on as the lowest of classes, doesn't exactly say they should be killed or mutilated. Most people disregard lower class people all the time. They will step right over them in the streets. Doesn't mean they will let them get muder.

I think its a lot like homeless in major cities. They know they are there, most people ignore them, they look at them as a blight, hope that they say to their "areas", but also take offense when people start committing crimes against them. 

Check out the JagerBtFM Twitch Stream's Discord at: https://discord.gg/zKcSsrTp

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Posted : 06/20/2022 9:41 PM
HeeroYuy and Syden liked
Syden
(@syden)
Active Member

To the ordinary citizens of Iridine though (the millions of people that aren't players), why would they care about them?

Remembering this is Roman era times. They all follow the strict doctrine set out by the Cult.

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Topic starter Posted : 06/20/2022 9:57 PM
ArchMagi
(@archmagi)
Trusted Member

The undone are the decedents of the people who caused the great cataclysm that caused priestess Iridine to sacrifice her life in the first place.

They are no longer those people, due to interbreeding, and the original sinners being all dead by now.

You are talking about the sins of the great grandfathers affecting the children of today.

You're free to role play that out if you wish.

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Posted : 06/20/2022 10:27 PM
sigsauer
(@sigsauer)
Eminent Member

Cult always felt like a side gig retirement home to me.

There are what 3 players?  Once a year they login.  I wouldn't

focus too much on the cult.

Auburn to the CWS! War damn eagle.

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Posted : 06/20/2022 10:41 PM
RandomOne
(@randomone)
Trusted Member
Posted by: @syden

To the ordinary citizens of Iridine though (the millions of people that aren't players), why would they care about them?

Remembering this is Roman era times. They all follow the strict doctrine set out by the Cult.

I guess they wouldn't. But using that logic, I also guess most wouldn't care about anything aside from what is in their direct day to day life. 

But I would also imagine, being the Roman era and how they are known for their rule of law, that some may find to be in violation of the principles of the state. Just depends on their individual "alignment" for lack of a better term.

Check out the JagerBtFM Twitch Stream's Discord at: https://discord.gg/zKcSsrTp

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Posted : 06/20/2022 11:21 PM
HeeroYuy and Syden liked
Evocatus
(@evocatus)
Active Member

I think that this would be a prejudice most common in older families of the Republic, and perhaps a peculiarity of the city, itself.  The city of Iridine is a cosmopolitan city - how many player characters aren't from anywhere near it?  The great deal of inter-national traffic and mixing of successive generations of foreigners would likely, by now, have reduced the stigma from what it was in the time of the kings and early republic.  The Soldiers of Ereal, and likely members/devotees of the Cult, would certainly be aware, and are likely the most active participants in/perpetuators of the stigma.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my interactions with Cult lore and practice, there doesn't seem to be an aggressive concern with an 'undesirable' caste - Erealism appears largely a light/life worshipping and supporting faith that would accept converts and cooperation from any people, though generations of marginalization likely make the appearance of the Undone rare enough that they would likely be seen at least as unusual, even distrusted, by the general population, regardless of a culture of active persecution of the indigenous, violet-eyed folk.

“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.” ~ Robert E. Howard

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Posted : 06/21/2022 12:16 AM
Syden
(@syden)
Active Member
Posted by: @evocatus

I think that this would be a prejudice most common in older families of the Republic, and perhaps a peculiarity of the city, itself.  The city of Iridine is a cosmopolitan city - how many player characters aren't from anywhere near it?  The great deal of inter-national traffic and mixing of successive generations of foreigners would likely, by now, have reduced the stigma from what it was in the time of the kings and early republic.  The Soldiers of Ereal, and likely members/devotees of the Cult, would certainly be aware, and are likely the most active participants in/perpetuators of the stigma.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my interactions with Cult lore and practice, there doesn't seem to be an aggressive concern with an 'undesirable' caste - Erealism appears largely a light/life worshipping and supporting faith that would accept converts and cooperation from any people, though generations of marginalization likely make the appearance of the Undone rare enough that they would likely be seen at least as unusual, even distrusted, by the general population, regardless of a culture of active persecution of the indigenous, violet-eyed folk.

It's all politics right? Power over the people. Light doesn't necessarily mean good.

The 'Cult of Ereal' will not show aggression or violence towards anyone as they will be seen as the bad guy. This is why they 'publicly' deny any type of alliance with the 'Soldiers of Ereal' because of their violent ways. Behind the scenes, if they were to allow the 'Undone' to roam free in the city, then they are at risk of them spreading their beliefs of the 'old gods' amongst the ordinary civilians leaving them open to anarchy and riots. There is a huge amount of corruption inside the Cult and Senate, and one particular family that holds most of the power in both of these 'government' organizations. It would be in their best interest to have 'order' amongst the people of Iridine to maintain a stranglehold on that power.

The way I see it is, those with Indigo or Purple eyes are associated with magic. It is not a common eye colour of the ordinary people and therefore is seen as unnatural and dangerous. Magic is drilled into the people as 'bad' and 'illegal' so it would cause a panic if these people were spotted in public. You could also argue that keeping the undone banished and hidden is actually protecting them from others wanting to kill them.

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : 06/21/2022 5:37 AM
Syden
(@syden)
Active Member
Posted by: @archmagi

The undone are the decedents of the people who caused the great cataclysm that caused priestess Iridine to sacrifice her life in the first place.

They are no longer those people, due to interbreeding, and the original sinners being all dead by now.

You are talking about the sins of the great grandfathers affecting the children of today.

You're free to role play that out if you wish.

I wish it was as simple as this, but this statement is 99% incorrect. 

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Topic starter Posted : 06/21/2022 5:49 AM
RandomOne
(@randomone)
Trusted Member
Posted by: @syden
It's all politics right? Power over the people. Light doesn't necessarily mean good.

Pretty much, its always politics. People use whatever system they can to get ahead, and those who buy the propaganda of that system hook, line and sinker are the best underlings, because they never questions anything and are easily convinced those in power are always right. Thats just a study in human history, it has been happening forever. Religion, Government, Social movements. The core is always the same.

As for the magic thing, I mean yes, but then why the selectivity of the SoE? They aren't out culling the Aziri magic users in RV every night. Nor are they hunting down people who pray to nature, which would clearly be those people putting rivers, forests and animals above Ereal, right? 

Don't get me wrong, I like the SoE in the game. I think its good to have that kind of faction. But I think its a bit disingenuous to also think that everyone will accept them and be 100% okay with everything they do in the name of Ereal. I pretty much equate the SoE to the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was sponsored by the church during its time and they thought they were 100% justified legally and spiritually for what they did. But I am sure there were many who despised them when they watched their husbands, wives, fathers, daughters, friends, and family be hauled in, accused of witchcraft and then summarily murdered because of it. I am sure a lot of folks at the time agreed with them, thought they were justified, and whole heartedly supported them, or at the very least outwardly showed support due to fear. But that doesn't mean everyone just blindly follows their cause and methods .

Check out the JagerBtFM Twitch Stream's Discord at: https://discord.gg/zKcSsrTp

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Posted : 06/21/2022 9:28 AM
HeeroYuy and Syden liked
Syden
(@syden)
Active Member
Posted by: @randomone

Pretty much, its always politics. People use whatever system they can to get ahead, and those who buy the propaganda of that system hook, line and sinker are the best underlings, because they never questions anything and are easily convinced those in power are always right. Thats just a study in human history, it has been happening forever. Religion, Government, Social movements. The core is always the same.

As for the magic thing, I mean yes, but then why the selectivity of the SoE? They aren't out culling the Aziri magic users in RV every night. Nor are they hunting down people who pray to nature, which would clearly be those people putting rivers, forests and animals above Ereal, right? 

Don't get me wrong, I like the SoE in the game. I think its good to have that kind of faction. But I think its a bit disingenuous to also think that everyone will accept them and be 100% okay with everything they do in the name of Ereal. I pretty much equate the SoE to the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was sponsored by the church during its time and they thought they were 100% justified legally and spiritually for what they did. But I am sure there were many who despised them when they watched their husbands, wives, fathers, daughters, friends, and family be hauled in, accused of witchcraft and then summarily murdered because of it. I am sure a lot of folks at the time agreed with them, thought they were justified, and whole heartedly supported them, or at the very least outwardly showed support due to fear. But that doesn't mean everyone just blindly follows their cause and methods .

 

If you look in the crowd at Rock Valley you will notice they are full of Soldiers of Ereal protecting the Town. With regards to the selectivity, that's not really a question I can answer and there are things at play in game that will hopefully shed some light on the direction of the SoE in the near future. I'm not trying to sell the SoE as the good guys here, because they have in fact done some terrible things in the history of this game and I've been pretty vocal about trying to get some clarity on the way forward from the Staff.

Agree, there is probably a huge amount of people that hate the SoE. There was one point in time where if had the colour green on your body, you were declared a Heretic. I found some posts in the old forums about how people were wisped away to the Blackvine fort and tortured for even speaking of the moon gods. The lore has changed over time with none of it documented, so I'm trying to gain an understanding of what people think of the past vs now because there have been some 'conflicts' of story and lore over the past 2 weeks that has got me questioning things.

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Topic starter Posted : 06/21/2022 9:55 AM
RandomOne
(@randomone)
Trusted Member
Posted by: @syden
Posted by: @randomone

Pretty much, its always politics. People use whatever system they can to get ahead, and those who buy the propaganda of that system hook, line and sinker are the best underlings, because they never questions anything and are easily convinced those in power are always right. Thats just a study in human history, it has been happening forever. Religion, Government, Social movements. The core is always the same.

As for the magic thing, I mean yes, but then why the selectivity of the SoE? They aren't out culling the Aziri magic users in RV every night. Nor are they hunting down people who pray to nature, which would clearly be those people putting rivers, forests and animals above Ereal, right? 

Don't get me wrong, I like the SoE in the game. I think its good to have that kind of faction. But I think its a bit disingenuous to also think that everyone will accept them and be 100% okay with everything they do in the name of Ereal. I pretty much equate the SoE to the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was sponsored by the church during its time and they thought they were 100% justified legally and spiritually for what they did. But I am sure there were many who despised them when they watched their husbands, wives, fathers, daughters, friends, and family be hauled in, accused of witchcraft and then summarily murdered because of it. I am sure a lot of folks at the time agreed with them, thought they were justified, and whole heartedly supported them, or at the very least outwardly showed support due to fear. But that doesn't mean everyone just blindly follows their cause and methods .

 

If you look in the crowd at Rock Valley you will notice they are full of Soldiers of Ereal protecting the Town. With regards to the selectivity, that's not really a question I can answer and there are things at play in game that will hopefully shed some light on the direction of the SoE in the near future. I'm not trying to sell the SoE as the good guys here, because they have in fact done some terrible things in the history of this game and I've been pretty vocal about trying to get some clarity on the way forward from the Staff.

Agree, there is probably a huge amount of people that hate the SoE. There was one point in time where if had the colour green on your body, you were declared a Heretic. I found some posts in the old forums about how people were wisped away to the Blackvine fort and tortured for even speaking of the moon gods. The lore has changed over time with none of it documented, so I'm trying to gain an understanding of what people think of the past vs now because there have been some 'conflicts' of story and lore over the past 2 weeks that has got me questioning things.

I guess I am not sure what you are going for then. Is this about the populaces feelings towards Undone, or the image of the SoE in the public eye? 

If its feeling towards Undone, then I think we covered that. From the help files it looks like they are basically the equivalent of "Roma" from European history. How people react to them is up to the individual. But I would guess most of Republic would pretty much ignore them, with the "you stay in your space, and I will stay in my space."

If you are looking for SoE public image, yeah..........I don't know what to tell you about that. It would be individual in nature based on their character's history. New characters are like blank slates, its all about how they find out about the group and their experience of them.

What is the conflict between story and lore you are speaking of? Explaining that might help guide the discussion where you need it to go

Check out the JagerBtFM Twitch Stream's Discord at: https://discord.gg/zKcSsrTp

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Posted : 06/21/2022 12:26 PM
ArchMagi
(@archmagi)
Trusted Member

Nothing I said was wrong. But if you're going to take the attitude that just because it came from me, it's wrong. What's the point in arguing, or sharing knowledge.

The undone are exactly who I said they are. You're free to hold onto an in game grudge about something that happened over 300 years ago. That the current undone had nothing to do with. Probably a good idea too, after all, if we take a look at current real world politics.... The Germans started every single world war.  Wouldn't have been a terrible idea to suppress the Germans around the time of Adolf Hitler.  Not their fault that Kaiser Wilhelm II started World War one... But it's in their nature... so to speak.  They might even be the first to get involved in the Russian war against the Ukrainian Nazi party, and start the third world war.

 

However, Syden is a zealot, in a group of zealots. So it'd be perfectly reasonable for Syden to hold a grudge against the children of heretics.

The SoE are not the good guys, never have been, never will be. They were kicked out of Cinera because they're so far from being the good guys, that even a country that believes in conquest, and might making right, thought they were too extreme.

The SoE are not part of the cult of Ereal, in any country. They're outlaws, and thugs. Religious zealots.  They're tolerated because the constables, and the legion, won't do what is necessary to save lives, when there is a heretic going around murdering people, and eating their faces.

 

Go ahead, and call me 99% wrong again.

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Posted : 06/21/2022 12:32 PM
Syden
(@syden)
Active Member
Posted by: @archmagi

Nothing I said was wrong. But if you're going to take the attitude that just because it came from me, it's wrong. What's the point in arguing, or sharing knowledge.

The undone are exactly who I said they are. You're free to hold onto an in game grudge about something that happened over 300 years ago. That the current undone had nothing to do with. Probably a good idea too, after all, if we take a look at current real world politics.... The Germans started every single world war.  Wouldn't have been a terrible idea to suppress the Germans around the time of Adolf Hitler.  Not their fault that Kaiser Wilhelm II started World War one... But it's in their nature... so to speak.  They might even be the first to get involved in the Russian war against the Ukrainian Nazi party, and start the third world war.

 

However, Syden is a zealot, in a group of zealots. So it'd be perfectly reasonable for Syden to hold a grudge against the children of heretics.

The SoE are not the good guys, never have been, never will be. They were kicked out of Cinera because they're so far from being the good guys, that even a country that believes in conquest, and might making right, thought they were too extreme.

The SoE are not part of the cult of Ereal, in any country. They're outlaws, and thugs. Religious zealots.  They're tolerated because the constables, and the legion, won't do what is necessary to save lives, when there is a heretic going around murdering people, and eating their faces.

 

Go ahead, and call me 99% wrong again.

 

The SoE were never kicked out of Cinera. 

The SoE are in fact part of the Cult.

 

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Topic starter Posted : 06/21/2022 5:48 PM
Evocatus liked
ArchMagi
(@archmagi)
Trusted Member
Posted by: @syden

 

The SoE were never kicked out of Cinera. 

The SoE are in fact part of the Cult.

I wish it was as simple as this, but this statement is 100% incorrect.

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Posted : 06/21/2022 9:07 PM
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