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"Justice PK" update & a review of crime and punishment

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Ioulinus
(@ioulinus)
Active Member
Posted by: @archmagi

jail would be completely ineffective at getting people to stop disturbing the peace, if they could just keep disturbing the peace from jail.

I agree with this comment - in that it's factually correct. However, thin skins shouldn't be a reason stop this. Constables should have an option to move prisoners to a more restrictive environment perhaps. There are plenty of "special" cells in the HQ. Give them something to do and have them interact with prisoners, perhaps. I mean, they throw them in there, they may as well have to interact with them (might make them reconsider minor charges).

I also feel like DtP is like harrassment - a catch all BS charge for those with thin skins. I think Kyna mentioned above something about constables should be allowed to arrest people for harrassing them (i.e. the victim is also the person making the arrest). I don't like this as I've seen it abused so many times (recently on my criminal, and while I played a constable). It was abused so much that my constable enforced rules around it and it drove a change to the recruitment process while I was in charge. Changes I took ideas from the legion for and which still exist in the legion to weed out those with thin skins. 

I think it needs to be clearly defined what the role of law enforcement is and is not. DtP and Harrassment are subjective. In that a player of a constable has the ability to affect outcomes against a paying player rather than just the character. This has happened to me before (jailed for subjective crimes that did not happen). This is why I feel constables need consequences to be allowed against them. Subjectivity is not "doing your job". Subjectivity should be open to repercussions. Being a constable or lawkeeper should not make you immune from consequences under the guise of "doing your job". You arrest a gangster or crime org member? You could be murdered. Think about it before you do it. Make sure you have all your ducks lined up. Be prepared to explain your actions and RP it out to the members of the org whose buddy you just threw behind bars. Cause this is a RP game after all and, if you just play a robot, you should be open to consequences of that style of play.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 7:34 AM
Quito liked
bottlecap
(@bottlecap)
Newbie
Posted by: @kyna
Posted by: @ioulinus
Good does not always have to win. I think that needs to be said quite firmly here because from what I have seen, the mentality of some current lawkeepers is that they should continue to get to play TEC easy mode.

 Okay, so no.. The good guys do NOT always win. Believe me, I know that very, very well! I'm not saying they should. I'm saying they should be given a chance to at least try to keep up. Most constables hired in the last couple of years are starting off with practically NO experience, combat or otherwise. So then the new constables have to spend RL years shoving training down their throats in combat in hopes of trying to catch up to at least some people combat-wise. This is not fun. Trust me when I say I'd rather be out RPing than having to shove training down a character's throat.

Please help me understand: Someone who spends years training and RP'ing their "bad guy" character should have their hard work nullified because someone decided to start a new character and have that new character join the constables? That just doesn't sit well with me. It gives me yet another reason not to play a character that runs afoul of the constables.

Can I summarise why people are hesitant to increase the powers of the constables via meta or mechanics?

As Kered wrote, warrants don't stop. If you get warranted, it's on your character until it's served or lifted. That limits what your character can do and where he or she can go.

DtP/Harassment: Such broad and subjective warrants, as Ioulinus wrote, can be easily abused.

Heat-seeking constables: These dudes have been a problem since time immemorial. They are not fun to deal with. At all. Arguing that it's fun is disingenuous.

A tough bad guy to take down should be an opportunity for more RP: Role-play a raid as the constables, bait the bad person out, get the wider community involved. This is a rich, untapped well for role-play and I can't believe your solution is to make the constables even stronger as an entity to shut down those opportunities.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 8:43 AM
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Kyna
 Kyna
(@kyna)
Active Member
Posted by: @sigsauer

@kyna

"Heat-seeking constables"... Personally, I rather like those NPC Constables being "heat-seeking." I have played a criminal character, actually, who had to deal with those heat-seeking constables. I had an absolute blast RPing it out, running around, trying to do my best to avoid them...

 

If you can provide proof successfully having a blast escaping and RPing while a heat seeker is chasing you with your criminal in video form. I will paypal you $100. You got a week.

Newflash; they open closed doors, locked doors, go anywhere you can think of.

Disclaimer:. Offer only available to Kynas player.

I never said my character didn't get caught. She got caught a couple of times, in fact, one of those times by a heat-seeking constable. But I still had fun trying NOT to get caught... Running around trying to avoid constable npcs while warranted can actually be pretty interesting RP I think. If you do something to get a warrant on you then you are going to have to pay the consequences if it is a good warrant. It's how the law works whether you like it or not. I guess I just don't understand why the need to complain about it... It's not like you are forbidden from NOT doing in-game crimes.

 

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Posted : 03/23/2021 10:52 AM
Not-TheD
(@not-thed)
Active Member

I'm unable to make a forum account with legitimate emails, so this is a throwaway. Perhaps that's fine, because I don't intend to return anytime soon. These forums and this website are awful. I am seeing a massive number of weird assumptions, and unbalanced suggestions. Don't have time/interest re: getting into those. I am responding specifically to a post by Ioulinus here.

I don’t find the recent example Ioulinus posted to be a good illustrator of how “difficult crime is.” The circumstances of that mess required OOC intervention. Some things to consider:

 

- Would a GM have "had" to intervene if the circumstances weren't so OOC? If Character 1’s player didn’t immediately take it into OOC chat and cascade “a number of upset, unwarranted, and incorrect reports” and hours of pitchforking Discord discussion? Do you think OOC conduct, more than IC action, triggered the need for GM intervention? If so, then this is truly a poor argument to make on behalf of "crime is so difficult." 

- Did someone really pick extremely public figures to impersonate? Like, on purpose? You think that wouldn’t have shaken out IG the exact same way it did OOC, sooner or later? Who pasted the very likely pretend-RP of Character 1 confronting who he assumed to be his attacker, and being quickly corrected? Scroll up in the Discord if you missed it.

- It’s not illegal to KO a scripter in the arena. This really isn’t a “crime” that even needed covering. It’s a pvp action, which isn’t always a crime.

- Was the “criminal’s player” banking on OOC jumping-to-conclusions? That seems a no no.

Crime is difficult for reasons that have very little to do with the circumstance you’re describing. I feel you're doing a disservice to legitimate issues re: playability of crime/enforcement, by conflagrating your argument with this situation. I’d like to read your thoughts on circumstances that aren't so tainted with OOC misconduct/OOC erroneous assumptions/OOC expectations, which, as you've said yourself, required a GM response. 

- Is crime difficult because there is no viable crime to commit? Should there be more “things to get”? (New contraband?) (What’s the point of amassing a whole bunch of money anyway, by the way? Are money sinks also too few?)

- Is crime difficult because constable mechanics are too OP? Are constables too poorly trained? Jail time too long? The ceiling punishment too severe? Laws too inaccessible?

- Is crime difficult because the player-base is too small? Opportunities are too limited? Does the vast size of the gameworld, proportional to the small playerbase, make it easier or harder to commit crime? Easier or harder to enforce laws? Easier or harder to investigate, PVP, interact?

- Do we want expansion of PVE or PVP crime, and what does that look like, and how much does that overlap?

- What do crime orgs miss about “ye olden days”, and was that balanced? Fair? Good for the gameworld? Did policies/practices in the olden days attract/push away players?

This list is yours to continue and elaborate on. I’ve already sent many of you my lengthy thoughts and suggestions.

This post was modified 2 years ago by Not-TheD
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Posted : 03/23/2021 1:13 PM
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Kered
(@kered)
Trusted Member

"Crime"

aspects

Crime in the city vs Crime outside the city

 

NPC super power

Accountability of  Constables

Griefer toons

Long time players vs newbie constables

Laws that are outdated

Laws that have way to long time in jail

OCC vs IC

What is there to do for crime orgs?

I look at overall.

 

Crime in the city - feels broken impossible and nothing to do

Crime outside the city- feels impossible to capture unless  someone is basically makes a mistake.

 

Why anyone would want to roll a thief to be inside the city is beyond me

 

 

Est 1999

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Posted : 03/23/2021 2:18 PM
Not-TheD
(@not-thed)
Active Member
Posted by: @ioulinus
Posted by: @archmagi

jail would be completely ineffective at getting people to stop disturbing the peace, if they could just keep disturbing the peace from jail.

I agree with this comment - in that it's factually correct. However, thin skins shouldn't be a reason stop this. Constables should have an option to move prisoners to a more restrictive environment perhaps. There are plenty of "special" cells in the HQ. Give them something to do and have them interact with prisoners, perhaps. I mean, they throw them in there, they may as well have to interact with them (might make them reconsider minor charges).

I also feel like DtP is like harrassment - a catch all BS charge for those with thin skins. I think Kyna mentioned above something about constables should be allowed to arrest people for harrassing them (i.e. the victim is also the person making the arrest). I don't like this as I've seen it abused so many times (recently on my criminal, and while I played a constable). It was abused so much that my constable enforced rules around it and it drove a change to the recruitment process while I was in charge. Changes I took ideas from the legion for and which still exist in the legion to weed out those with thin skins. 

I think it needs to be clearly defined what the role of law enforcement is and is not. DtP and Harrassment are subjective. In that a player of a constable has the ability to affect outcomes against a paying player rather than just the character. This has happened to me before (jailed for subjective crimes that did not happen). This is why I feel constables need consequences to be allowed against them. Subjectivity is not "doing your job". Subjectivity should be open to repercussions. Being a constable or lawkeeper should not make you immune from consequences under the guise of "doing your job". You arrest a gangster or crime org member? You could be murdered. Think about it before you do it. Make sure you have all your ducks lined up. Be prepared to explain your actions and RP it out to the members of the org whose buddy you just threw behind bars. Cause this is a RP game after all and, if you just play a robot, you should be open to consequences of that style of play.

Another cherry-picked situation that you're citing, without context, and while conveniently forgetting the other half of the equation. Your character was arrested by a lawkeeper, and your position at the time was that the arrest was improper. Your character then chose -not- to pursue consequences against that lawkeeper through a venue that actually makes sense (e.g., by speaking to that lawkeeper's superior.) "Being a constable or lawkeeper should not make you immune from consequences under the guise of "doing your job."" - There -were- consequences for that lawkeeper, that scaled rather dramatically against his favor. It's dishonest of you to say that there were (and are) "no consequences" for a lawkeeper making a mistake/abusing powers/being an asshole.

Are you trying to bring in the "why can't we PK constables for arresting people" argument into this? 

You arrest a gangster or crime org member? You could be murdered. Think about it before you do it. Make sure you have all your ducks lined up. Be prepared to explain your actions and RP it out to the members of the org whose buddy you just threw behind bars. Cause this is a RP game after all and, if you just play a robot, you should be open to consequences of that style of play.

Oh, yikes, you are. Facepalm.

This post was modified 2 years ago 2 times by Not-TheD
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Posted : 03/23/2021 3:32 PM
Not-TheD
(@not-thed)
Active Member

(I wrote something, then it was eaten by this godawful forum. I believe the message I briefly saw before it faded was "the time to edit your post has expired." What trash.)

I believe the rule is, and has been that "lawkeepers doing their jobs do not equate to justification for PK tickets." Someone correct me if there is more nuance than that. 

Lawkeepers doing their jobs is, ideally, the unbiased application of laws that apply to everyone. Criminals then voluntarily choose to break them, initiating a conflict. Lawkeepers then respond to something started by that criminal. If that lawkeeper's action -is not- fair/unbiased/substantiated, that criminal has very real, very accessible, and very escalating IG means of ensuring that lawkeeper sees real consequences. A potential step one: talk to their boss.

Hey, so, what DID happen to that lawkeeper Ioulinus had a complaint about? Are you saying that -wasn't- an IG consequence? If you need a reminder, feel free to find out IG.

A PK is a completely different level of consequence. A PK is a permanent end to a character, some characters being the result of decades of player investment, and some characters which took mere moments to make. (You think a 3 day jailtime is a horrifying player punishment? What about the end of a 20+ year old character due to OOC grudges? Or, according to your atrocious example, murder of a lawkeeper for arresting a guy for a crime actually committed? Geebus, friend.) This is why PKs absolutely must have GM oversight. Lawkeeper action CAN result in PK tickets being granted against that lawkeeper - if that lawkeeper's action has somehow escalated beyond them simply applying the law. That has happened in the past, hasn't it? And could again, in the future.

I personally find it extremely important for lawkeepers to have a PC to PC interaction with a character being arrested for a crime. This gives the criminal an opportunity to explain it, address it, make recompense, potentially have warrants removed, etc. More importantly, it is role play. 

Your scenario of "lawkeepers should be subject to PK tickets for enforcing laws" is actually pushing for a shift in lawkeeper behavior you probably -don't- want. How would you like lawkeepers to simply NOT sign their name off on warrants, HIDE their involvement, and lean on anonymous NPCs to do the "dirty" work? Seriously, yeesh.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 4:00 PM
sigsauer
(@sigsauer)
Eminent Member
Posted by: @not-thed

If that lawkeeper's action -is not- fair/unbiased/substantiated, that criminal has very real, very accessible, and very escalating IG means of ensuring that lawkeeper sees real consequences. A potential step one: talk to their boss.

 In my case, I would think coming into the cell repeatedly to break the toons limbs and knocking him KO was beyond a case for staff to offer me a PK on the toons.  I, however, got offered a script check.

Auburn to the CWS! War damn eagle.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 4:09 PM
Kered
(@kered)
Trusted Member

[If that lawkeeper's action -is not- fair/unbiased/substantiated, that criminal has very real, very accessible, and very escalating IG means of ensuring that lawkeeper sees real consequences. A potential step one: talk to their boss.]

 

I love you Thed but LOLOLOLOL to this

Est 1999

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Posted : 03/23/2021 4:40 PM
Ioulinus
(@ioulinus)
Active Member
Posted by: @not-thed

Are you trying to bring in the "why can't we PK constables for arresting people" argument into this? 

You arrest a gangster or crime org member? You could be murdered. Think about it before you do it. Make sure you have all your ducks lined up. Be prepared to explain your actions and RP it out to the members of the org whose buddy you just threw behind bars. Cause this is a RP game after all and, if you just play a robot, you should be open to consequences of that style of play.

Oh, yikes, you are. Facepalm.

I'm not saying that at all in the quote above. I'm pointing out that RP should involve thinking about the consequences of your actions. Perhaps if I'd said "You could get jumped". Either way, the point there is that if you're planning to engage in PVP, law-keeper or not, you should be prepared for consequences. And those consequences will escalate. I was responding to the position that -some- law-keepers have been stating that bad guys are just there to do crimes and go to jail, and should accept that they should be in jail because they are bad. Because being chased by terminator constables is good RP.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 4:59 PM
Ioulinus
(@ioulinus)
Active Member
Posted by: @not-thed

 

Hey, so, what DID happen to that lawkeeper Ioulinus had a complaint about? Are you saying that -wasn't- an IG consequence? If you need a reminder, feel free to find out IG.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't an ig consequence for that lawkeeper. But I am saying that those Harrassment and DtP charges are BS and that point is proven above. Glad there were consequences in that situation, but don't want to dwell on this issue in here because of the fact it is settled ig.

I do find it concerning that those charges are still being thrown around in this thread, by constables, who say there aren't enough of them being handed out to characters and that the charge should lead to a -lot- longer jailtime. Hence my response calling them BS. Because it is used as a subjective BS charge, and still sticks to a character's permanent record. Half my guy's arrests have been DtP or Harrassment, handed out as ways to bully him/me.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 5:06 PM
Not-TheD
(@not-thed)
Active Member
Posted by: @ioulinus
Posted by: @not-thed

 

Hey, so, what DID happen to that lawkeeper Ioulinus had a complaint about? Are you saying that -wasn't- an IG consequence? If you need a reminder, feel free to find out IG.

 

I'm not saying there wasn't an ig consequence for that lawkeeper. But I am saying that those Harrassment and DtP charges are BS and that point is proven above. Glad there were consequences in that situation, but don't want to dwell on this issue in here because of the fact it is settled ig.

I do find it concerning that those charges are still being thrown around in this thread, by constables, who say there aren't enough of them being handed out to characters and that the charge should lead to a -lot- longer jailtime. Hence my response calling them BS. Because it is used as a subjective BS charge, and still sticks to a character's permanent record. Half my guy's arrests have been DtP or Harrassment, handed out as ways to bully him/me.

What "point was proven, above"?

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Posted : 03/23/2021 10:34 PM
barbarian
(@barbarian)
Newbie

The entire system being instituted under the guise of modern day 'policing' is rather short sighted and OOC IMO.

 

The constabulary shouldn't have such power over the OOC lives of an account by adding additional RP killing aspects. There is no real moderation in how laws are taught and almost always seem to be 'sudden changes or sudden policy handed via some letter' to fit the needs of the constabulary. I can think of several things taught by the current class of constables that are opposite to what has been canon and lore. One of those examples is investigating outside of the city. You are city 'cops'. You can't investigate outside.

 

Additionally, to Kyna's point, the idea of a rookie having a super NPC trying to have a 'chance' against an established old toon is insanity. If you want to be a constable in Iridine, there has to be some sort of risk to doing your job. Kyna, Melati, and Krem should have nothing but trouble trying to arrest say.. any actual #Baddie. I know if Ciaran wants to beat up something, he shouldn't have his hours upon hours of training and investment ruined by a group of sub 3k TCR rookies.

 

Additionally, the idea that 'i should have a chance because i would rather RP than train for constables' is also self defeating. You're a 'law' character, which means you are opening yourself up to opportunity for PVP in some fashion. It comes with the territory.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 11:47 PM
Dragonus liked
barbarian
(@barbarian)
Newbie

As for DTP or harassment, the sudden 'turn on a dime' stance of what is considered appropriate is the biggest problem.

 

Without obviously saying the name, constable x can talk about all of the vile crap and boarder line X rated conversations via thoughts and nothing happens. You call them out on it, and suddenly their husband constable hollars in thoughts "Come to the Station now or face charges'.

 

Yep. There is an obvious reason why people have such issue with how laws are handled IG.

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Posted : 03/23/2021 11:58 PM
ArchMagi
(@archmagi)
Trusted Member

Corruption happens. Is it good that it happens? No, not really.

But on the flip side, there's an entire district of the capital city that is run by thugs and criminals who face no consequences for their actions, while crying about constables not facing consequences for sometimes catching them breaking the law.

 

You don't want to do the time? Don't do the crime. Don't whine and moan about how it's unfair, how you should be able to murder constables for arresting you, when they can't murder you for murdering that guy that you murdered, without extreme evidence. And even then, murdering bad guys has been toned down a lot.

 

Lets have more murdering criminals, and less corruption in the law enforcement parties.

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Posted : 03/24/2021 2:54 AM
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