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Avros needs attention

RandomOne
(@randomone)
Trusted Member

Sadly, having dealt with the misery of Avros for a long time now, I thought it prudent to address a few issues with the skillset and BEG for some attention.

 

As it stands, Avros and Nelsor are the only 2 stances of a skillset which leave openings upon misses. I have spoken to a few people who have tested Nelsor, and using the style 2 handed negates these openeings completely. So Nelsor has a way to close these holes.

 

The issue really, is the openeings on misses make Avros miserable to hunt with in either of the 2 major hunting areas: Franilus and Black Hand Complex. One miss of an attack can leave you open to stun-locking from the mobs, which can cause bleeds and a loss of about 50-80 HP at one shot. The reasoning is, the opening does not close on its own until you take another combat action. Falling back does not close it. So if you have any type of lag in the client, which Orchil does have lag between “YANLB” and being able to input a command, you may just be a sitting duck for multiple rounds. Because while I see the ”You are No Longer Busy” or “You are no longer stunned”, the enemy immediately attacks and re-stuns before my command is accepted by the game. So I wait, hit enter as soon as I see one of those pop up, and between hitting enter and the game accepting it, the enemy has all had their actions. It can prove to be extremely frustrating and a bit game breaking for the skillset.

 

As far as attacks leaving openings, Avros is a bit miserable. The attack Rapid Strike has a chance to throw your weapon on a miss, and Whirling Strike has a chance to leave openings on a missed roll. Forced Thrust and Strike and Smash will ALWAYS leave openings on a  missed roll. Avros really has 6 attacks that can be used. Pivot Lunge is used to disengage from all attackers except the target, so while good on utility, not really something you want to use in a “rotation” because you may want enemies engaged on you. Flinging Disarm is only used when your weapon is trapped, so that is also a Utility move. That leaves: Forced Thrust (only usable against armed opponents and always opening on miss), Rapid Strike (possible weapon drop), Strike and Smash (always opening on miss), Whirling Strike (possible opening on miss), Stab and Slash, and Needle Strike.

So, of the 6 attacks….2 could leave an opening or weapon drop on a mis, 2 always leave an opening on a miss, and 2 are relatively safe to use. Those odds are actually very horrible. Think about it this way: Mob goes defensive, success jumps to 95, they basically get a free “feint” against you for 33% of the moves from the skillset and a possible opening from 33% of the moves.. That’s some really Horrible odds that you will get a feint against you 33% of the time, and maybe 33% of the time. And it is not a feint, technically, no none of the traits or feint negation skills work against it.

 

No other skillset suffers from those types of absolutely horrendous odds for what? Avros does not deal any more damage than other skillsets, and it does not have any more utility either. The skillset itself would be fine if the openings were closed. And if no other weapons (let alone Pard does not have that disadvantage and Nelsor has a way to close them) have the same disadvantage, then seriously, answer the question of why does Avros have it and how is it balanced against other skillsets?

 

There is a reason that top Avros folks either quit the game, don’t play anymore, or have abandoned the skillset. I am not here to bitch about staves being OP in terms of game balance, I am focused solely on Avros. And looking at how it performs, it would be a normal, mid-level, viable skillset IF the openeings and weapon toss were removed. So please, I am damn near begging you, close the openings on Nelsor and Avros. Its really miserable to deal with and there is no trade off for them.

 

And before anyone says “Switch to “X” weapon” that’s not really the answer either. This is a problem with the stances, everyone knows it, everyone in the community agrees it is a glaring issue that makes the game almost unplayable at times, and it NEEDs addressed. The solution is simple. Remove the openings so it is in line with every other darn skillset in the game and it will be performing just fine.

Check out the JagerBtFM Twitch Stream's Discord at: https://discord.gg/zKcSsrTp

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Topic starter Posted : 02/02/2022 10:23 AM
RandomOne
(@randomone)
Trusted Member

Any while we are at it, if you are going to make certain critical hits knock enemies back OUR of melee range (which is more annoyance and issue especially fighting in groups) then I think all your ranged weapons should have a crit that brings enemies into melee range. Its only fair.

Check out the JagerBtFM Twitch Stream's Discord at: https://discord.gg/zKcSsrTp

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Topic starter Posted : 02/03/2022 9:55 AM
GM Pranzor
(@pranzor)
Member Admin

Possible removal of sword openings is something we will be discussing, in the grand realm of all things combat. I cannot speak to precisely when that may be, but it is definitely on our radar. Our general goal with combat is to look at subpar functionality of skillsets and improve it. I am optimistic that we can do a lot of good without resorting to nerfs, but I cannot rule that out either depending on what changes may occur. 

Combat changes are on the table and we will hopefully be getting some of those out sooner rather than later.

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Posted : 02/06/2022 6:30 PM
RandomOne liked
RandomOne
(@randomone)
Trusted Member

I am glad to hear it is being considered and an option. Thank you for the consideration and the update!

 

Check out the JagerBtFM Twitch Stream's Discord at: https://discord.gg/zKcSsrTp

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Topic starter Posted : 02/06/2022 7:02 PM
MurfTEC
(@murftec)
Newbie

Dont see why it would be nerfed any more. The damage is the 3rd out of the 4 skill sets of swords. Openings are horrible. Even if you got rid of the openings, the damage is still horrible compared to all of the weapons. Realistically, how can even hands do more damage than a sword? If the game lets hands do nasty damage, theres no reason swords shouldnt be up there either. 

 

As for openings, no other weapon has these problems. why dont 1h axes knives ect lose their weapon on a block? why does rapid and whirling strike lose your weapon if you just miss? it didnt hit anything to get knocked out of your hand like it said its supposed to. Just feel its an unneeded mechanic in the game that should be removed. 

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Posted : 02/08/2022 6:42 PM
RandomOne liked
ArchMagi
(@archmagi)
Trusted Member

Avros wasn't meant to be a hunting skill set, it's described as a dueling style for nobles.

Anyone who took it for hunting, was mistaken.  It's for duels.

That's not to say you can't use it, it's just not what it's purpose is.

Nelsor was also not meant to be a hunting skill set, it's meant to be flashy, and bold, to entertain in the colosseum.

Pardellian is the sword form for war, it can be used for hunting, and should work better in a group. If it does or not, I have no experience.

Swords in general are weapons of war, not mob hunting.  You're free to use them as you wish though.  Heck, some people like to fight people with knives still.

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Posted : 02/09/2022 2:19 AM
Psilac
(@psilac)
Active Member

@archmagi Tridents aren't meant to be a hunting weapon either, or whips, or cestii, or giant two handed axes... The list goes on. Spears and bows would be hunting weapons. Yet all of these can be used to 'hunt' in game. Well, bows being a hunting weapon in game is a bit of debate as well, I've heard them referred to much more often as a 'support' weapon since they can't do much on their own. Even in a duel an Avros user is at a serious disadvantage unless they're facing off specifically against another Avros user, and even then it becomes a waiting game to get a block or dodge in that leaves an opening that you can capitalize on. That sounds exactly like a duel in real life... But in a game when you want to be actively fighting every time there's a round time up and taking swings it's counterproductive to have one and only one skillset that leaves you wide open just cuz you took a swing when the other person took a defensive stance. A highly trained combatant should be able to protect himself when someone gets a lucky dodge against them, but Avros leaves you completely defense less when you miss with multiple moves. At the end of the day this is a game, and yes there should be weapons that counter other weapons, but when one weapon is the bottom of the barrel against literally every other weapon in the game it should be addressed, because it's a game. Wanting to pick a cool flashy move set shouldn't put you at a very distinct disadvantage against every other skill in the game. 

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Posted : 02/09/2022 4:49 AM
RandomOne liked
GoatLover69
(@goatlover69)
Active Member

Glads have been hurting for a very long time while other weapons greatly out shine a weapon that is supposed to be far more flexable in it's use. I do not used glads but I know full well a short sword should and could trump just about any heavy/ 2 handed weapon in battle.

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Posted : 02/09/2022 1:21 PM
RandomOne liked
ArchMagi
(@archmagi)
Trusted Member

That's not really true.  A short sword would have difficulty getting into range against a heavy, two handed weapon, since the danger zone is larger than the reach of a short sword.

Please note, I never said you can't use any weapon for whatever you want, feel free, it is a game after all.  I'm also not saying don't look for ways to balance weapons against each other.

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Posted : 02/09/2022 11:03 PM
MurfTEC
(@murftec)
Newbie

If a 2h weapon went up against a 1h short sword the 1h would have the advantage because you take a big swing with a 2h and if you miss, thats where the openings would really be since both your hands are occupied with the weapon. Yes if a 2h hit, you are getting hurt but a 1h is a lot quicker and can outmaneuver any 2h. 

Have you ever tried to swing a 2h sword or axe? You get jerked around unless youre jacked up and can handle it. Otherwise you will lose your balance and or get swung around. The avros as a dueling or not, should not have the disadvantages that it does. But if they decided to keep these openings, then all other weapons should have the same issues and especially 2h weapons.

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Posted : 02/10/2022 1:23 AM
RandomOne liked
ArchMagi
(@archmagi)
Trusted Member

Yes, I have used a 2h sword or axe. I've also taught other people how to use a 2h sword or axe.

I used to regularly use a Scottish Claymore, for fun. And was into axe throwing.

I also used a spear, and a gladius. I'm kinda bad with a bow though.

 

The thing is... it's hard to close the distance with someone who knows how to use a 2h weapon, if you're using a short weapon.

But you're partially right about one thing... once you manage to close the distance, the short sword does have the speed advantage.  Getting in close is the hard part.

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Posted : 02/10/2022 8:34 AM
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